Nazism Is Not a Metaphor

Via Rachel Maddow

Frank Schaeffer author of "Crazy For God" to discuss the dangerous rhetoric that healthcare reform opponents are employing in sowing outrage among their followers particularly references to Adolf Hitler and Nazis.


J said... / Aug 9, 2009, 1:18:00 AM  

How many times did the left call Bush Hitler?

And speaking of 'inciting violence'..

Codester said... / Aug 10, 2009, 10:55:00 AM  
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Codester said... / Aug 10, 2009, 10:57:00 AM  

It's wrong no matter who does it.

And what violence did that movie incite?

J said... / Aug 12, 2009, 7:57:00 PM  

Not saying that the movie incited violence. But if Maddow is saying that comparing policies to Nazism has the potential to incite violence, I'm saying a movie about killing a then sitting president Bush has the potential to incite violence as well. Luckily, the movie flopped. But what if a crazy left winger saw it and caught inspiration to carry out the theme of the movie?

Yes, putting Obama's face with the Hitler mustache and saying that "Hitler gave great speeches too" on a t-shirt is totally over the top. I just can't get worked up by it because it was done to Bush 20x more. I saw plenty of Bush-Hitler shirts at almost every anti-war march and I can't even remember a prominent Democrat (talking head or sitting Congressman) condemning that hatred. And Nazism is a political ideology and comparing Obama's ideology to SOME of the tenements of Nazism (National Socialism) is NOT saying that Obama wants to commit genocide. Nazism included love of the environment, animal rights, banning people from owning guns, and a bigger state in general. American conservatism by definition is on the other side of the political spectrum because most of the tenements of Nazism required more regulation of individual behavior, the antithesis of what, Burke, William F Buckley, and other major conservative writers wrote about.

Codester said... / Aug 13, 2009, 4:23:00 AM  

20x more?

You have GOT to be joking.

Have you been watching the lead up to the election, tea parties, and health care town halls?

I've never seen so much Nazi symbolism in my life.

What I saw directed at Bush was sporadic and minuscule. And I thought it was disgusting then and I said so. Most of the time also showing the anyone who did it... the principles of Godwin's Law and how it immediately makes the accuser a simpleton jackass.

Stop trying to come to me justifying this behavior and condemn it!!

I am.

J said... / Aug 13, 2009, 11:40:00 AM  
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J said... / Aug 13, 2009, 12:01:00 PM  

I just said:

"Yes, putting Obama's face with the Hitler mustache and saying that "Hitler gave great speeches too" on a t-shirt is totally over the top"

It is wrong to put Obama's face next to Hitler. Period. It is fair game to compare the ideological beliefs of the modern day left to Nazism (abortion, environmentalism, etc..).

No prominent Democrat condemned Bush-Hitler. And yes, 20x more because there were countless protests during the Iraq War with Bush-Hitler signs. And that comparison wasn't limited to far left Americans, I was in Vienna watching an anti-war march and the Bush-Hitler signs were everywhere. And there were a helluva lot more anti-war marches across the country than tea parties or healthcare town halls.

This is just selective moral outrage from the left. Did Rachel Maddow or Keith Olberman condemn Bush-Hitler comparisons? Please...

The left uses the same tactics with racism, condemning somebody on the right for it while not condemning left wingers for it.

J said... / Aug 14, 2009, 3:34:00 AM

Codester said... / Aug 15, 2009, 6:30:00 AM  

"No prominent Democrat condemned Bush-Hitler."

Did any prominent Democrats encourage or engage in it... the way prominent as well as Congressional Republicans have endorsed "birtherism"?

Codester said... / Aug 15, 2009, 6:39:00 AM  

Also considering the tons of Nazi and swastika paraphernalia I've seen at gun shows and flea markets, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that when it comes to white supremacists and Nazi sympathizers... they look to the left or liberals

They know and understand which ideology closely identifies with them and where they'll find a more receiving audience for recruitment.

You do understand what Hitler thought of liberals and leftists... don't you?

J said... / Aug 18, 2009, 4:03:00 AM  

white supremacists and Nazi sympathizers do not read National Review, they are on stormfront. Since American conservatism is really pro-Israel, I doubt that they are your average Republican since these Nazis happen to be anti-Semetic. What you see is fringe people with a chip on your shoulder who are more than likely not involved in the political process whatsoever. I wasn't trying to convince you that dumb people who wear Nazi paraphernalia today are liberals. My only point was to compare the POLICIES and BELIEFS of Nazism to the contemporary left is fair game.

"Did any prominent Democrats encourage or engage in it... the way prominent as well as Congressional Republicans have endorsed "birtherism"?"

J said... / Aug 18, 2009, 4:55:00 AM  

If you were to say:

"George Bush's policy X,Y,Z is similar to what the Nazi party of Germany did in the 1930s", that'd be fair game too.

Codester said... / Aug 18, 2009, 5:58:00 AM  

You get no sympathies from me on the Durbin comparison. Those actions have been widely condemned. And to say that justifies the Obama comparisons is weak, seeing as how this is what a real conservative thinks of torture...

Reagan On Torture Prosecutions

From his signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called 'universal jurisdiction.' Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution."

Reagan was adamant about prosecuting torture, but also prosecuting inhuman treatment that some might claim was not full-on torture. Now go read National Review or The Weekly Standard. And look what has happened to conservatism in America.

Honestly, you have too many arguments waiting in the wings... that are all ready to justify what the right is doing. Just stand up to your ideological peers, be a man, and condemn this moronic associations when you hear them. Simple.

J said... / Aug 18, 2009, 9:06:00 PM  

"Those actions have been widely condemned."

by internationalists that I could care less about. Honestly, you asked for an instance of when prominent Democrats made the comparison of Bush to the Nazis, I just gave you one. Whether or not the actions have been condemned is a non sequitur.

"And to say that justifies the Obama comparisons is weak"

I don't think your getting it. Let me make it as simple as I possibly can:

Ideological comparisons - fair game whether you are a liberal, conservative, moderate, socialist, authoritarian, whatever

Putting Bush's or Obama's face on a poster with Hitler mustaches or swastikas - stupid, moronic.

Codester said... / Aug 19, 2009, 12:37:00 PM  

"...American conservatism by definition is on the other side of the political spectrum..."

Of course it is...

Codester said... / Aug 19, 2009, 12:56:00 PM  

" asked for an instance of when prominent Democrats made the comparison of Bush to the Nazis..."

And as yet... you haven't provided one.

J said... / Aug 19, 2009, 6:44:00 PM  

I gave ya Durbin, and you haven't condemned that yet.

Here ya go, Codester, a gallery of Bush-Hitler isms

Journalists, authors, leftwing organizations, everybody. Again, the Bush-Hitler comparison was made 20x more. And if you lefties want to play dirty, fine. But don't get mad when it is done right back to you. I have zero sympathy

By the way

Larouche is no conservative, and I bet you haven't figured out that the guy who came up with those Obama-Joker posters is a leftie.

Codester said... / Aug 20, 2009, 7:34:00 AM  

Durbin didn't compare Bush to Hitler.
Prominent serving Congressional pols who did: Zero.

"...don't get mad when it is done right back to you..."

I'm not getting mad, I'm telling you that you should condemn it and you continue in your attempts to justify.

If conservatives would stop emulating LaRochies, the distinction would be more defined.

The person who created the Joker art was a student and his ideology wasn't identified. The identity of the ACTUAL person who took that art and slapped the word "socialism" under it and used it in a malicious and viral manner is still unknown.

If you were spending more of your time educating yourself about the facts instead of assuming you're somehow educating me, you probably wouldn't be making such erroneous declarative statements all the time.

J said... / Aug 22, 2009, 10:50:00 PM  

You still don't listen very carefully. I don't justify people putting Obama-Hitler posters up. Durbin compared the actions of a sitting administration to Nazi Germany, as if waterboarding was the moral equivalent of killing six million jews. Even Durbin himself apologized for it later

What conservatives are 'emulating LaRochies'? Seriously, there is no popular conservative that I know of that would purposely imitate a hack like LaRouche. He's popular among the insane, not among the 40% or so of the country that is conservative.

The person who did the Obama-Joker poster was a guy who supported Dennis Kucinich for president, it's easily looked up. With or without the word socialism on it is irrelevant. If those words weren't there, you are still in effect calling the President a joke.

Codester said... / Aug 23, 2009, 1:40:00 PM  

"...Seriously, there is no popular conservative that I know of that would purposely imitate a hack like LaRouche...."

Earlier, we were speaking of "prominent" Congressional level pols embracing nonsense like birtherism, because so may Conservative Congressional level pols (and outspoken pundits) actually did.

In the case of these Hitler/Obama posters... we're not talking about "popular" or prominant conservatives... we're talking about the "so-called" grassroots idiots at teabagger parties, and healthcare reform townhall meetings that have nazi, swatika, and Hitler references on display. They are NOT all LaRoache people and you damn well know it. Some of those people identify themselves with the conservative ideology whether YOU identify them that way or not.

Now, since you're even gonna try to deny that as a regular occurance... we're pretty much done Mr. J.Anonymous.

Also, and again (since you apparently don't listen very carefully)... the student Kucinich supporter who did the Joker image did not distribute the (altered) "Socialist" image in a malicious manner all over the LA city streets the way the (still as yet unknown) anti-Obama moron who ripped it off from that guy's site... DID.

Now, I can't honestly attribute that to conservatives anymore than you can say who started it either, but I'm big enough to admit that.

Dude, try as you might to stretch a un-truth... "WEAK"!! LOL

Codester said... / Aug 23, 2009, 1:57:00 PM  

And besides, regardless of who the creator or distributor was... a quick glance agound Twitter hashtags and we can quickly see which ideology embraced the demeaning image with open arms.


Many found Alkhateeb’s work to be particularly vicious. On the website of LA Weekly, Steven Mikulan wrote the following:

The poster, which bears a very superficial resemblance to Shepard Fairey’s famous Obama Hope illustration, has been pasted on freeway supports and other public surfaces. It has a bit of everything to appeal to the drunk tank of California conservatism: Obama is in white face, his mouth (like Ledger’s Joker’s) has been grotesquely slit wide open and the word “Socialism” appears below his face. The only thing missing is a noose.

Many commenters on this site agreed. On Aug. 3, for instance, “Murdock” wrote, “This is the typical hate-centered projection that the hysterical right is manufacturing. They are out of real ideas and all they have left is scorched earth. This represents their typical projection and emotes who they really are: jokers with the burned out eyes.”

J said... / Aug 24, 2009, 8:10:00 AM  

"Earlier, we were speaking of "prominent" Congressional level pols embracing nonsense like birtherism, because so may Conservative Congressional level pols (and outspoken pundits) actually did."

Which congressional pol did? The only one that I know who came close to it was John Campbell, and he didn't really embrace it. Which pundit did? Lou Dobbs, not exactly a conservative...but an idiot. He also believed in the North American Union conspiracy during the Bush admin. Watch him getting schooled:

And Mr J Anonymous?! lol, I could be a chick for all you know.

Codester said... / Aug 24, 2009, 2:32:00 PM  

"...Which congressional pol did? The only one that I know..."

Yeah, I know. Like I said... your low information status is why I've grown bored with you. This is way to easy.

Congressional level conservatives...?

"...H.R. 1503, drafted by Rep. Bill Posey, R-Fla., has 10 Republican co-sponsors..."

Rep Blackburn, Marsha [TN-7] - 6/26/2009
Rep Burton, Dan [IN-5] - 7/7/2009
Rep Campbell, John [CA-48] - 6/17/2009
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31] - 6/12/2009
Rep Culberson, John Abney [TX-7] - 6/12/2009
Rep Gohmert, Louie [TX-1] - 7/28/2009
Rep Goodlatte, Bob [VA-6] - 5/5/2009
Rep Marchant, Kenny [TX-24] - 7/9/2009
Rep Neugebauer, Randy [TX-19] - 6/12/2009
Rep Poe, Ted [TX-2] - 7/7/2009


"...From Lou Dobbs to Liz Cheney to Camile Paglia to Sean Hannity..."

J said... / Aug 24, 2009, 8:44:00 PM  

Show me where Sean Hannity said Obama is not a US citizen.

Lou Dobbs is not a conservative, period. He's got a long history of believing in nonsense, as that ABC video I've posted already shows.

H.R 1503, here's the summary:

" To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require the principal campaign committee of a candidate for election to the office of President to include with the committee's statement of organization a copy of the candidate's birth certificate, together with such other documentation as may be necessary to establish that the candidate meets the qualifications for eligibility to the Office of President under the Constitution."

That's reasonable as far as I'm concerned, so we don't end up with another conspiracy theory in the future. Did any of them air doubt that Obama is a US citizen? Show me where they did.

You are doing what leftists in general do: tar and feather some idiot and then assign their idiocy to entire groups of ideological allies. Most of the widely known "Birthers", like Alan Keyes and Jerome Corsi, are NUTS. NUTS are not by definition conservative just like they aren't by definition liberal. Plenty of talk radio hosts that aren't nuts condemned the birther nonsense, as well as the head of the Republican party. There was no such condemnation of the following left wing conspiracy theories that leftists still believe:

"Bush lied, people died"

"Bush stole Florida"

"9/11 was an inside job"

"The war in Iraq is blood for oil and Haliburton"

All false, all nonsense, all not condemned either by Democrat politicians or DNC operatives.

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